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In Chapter 38 Pip and Estella go to visit the old woman, and Pip observes for the first time a combative relationship between her and Estella: Miss Havisham goads Estella on to break men’s hearts, but Estella treats Miss Havisham as coldly as she treats her suitors. The convict’s reference to himself as Pip’s “second father” in Chapter 39 allows us to track Pip’s development through a succession of father figures. Unlike Estella Pip has strong feelings for Magwitch. Where Estella is cold and distant to Miss Havisham, Pip, although far from being a perfect relationship, cares very much for Magwitch.